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contenu importé de 2020-116#indieweb Session facilitator: Chris Aldrich > This is just a single one hour IndieWebCamp-like session (though we have the option to go over a bit since there isn’t a session following us) where we’ll brainstorm and discuss a particular topic. (...)


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The Garden and the Stream was a session at IndieWebCamp Pop-ups 2020.

IndieWebCamp Pop-ups 2020
Session: The Garden and the Stream
When: 2020-04-25 10:00

We’ll be discussing and brainstorming ideas related to wikis and the IndieWeb, user interfaces, functionalities, examples of wikis and how they differ from blogs and other social media interfaces, and everyones’ ideas surrounding these. Bring your ideas and let’s discuss.


(All participants were remote; according to the logs there were a total of 35 participants throughout the event.)

  • Ton Zijlstra
    • Ton Zylstra -
    • wiki next to blog for a long time (wakkawiki)
    • had wiki as desktop entrypoint for notes for a long time
    • used to crosspost from blog to wiki
    • now using wordpress pages as wiki pages
    • interested in the flow between the blog and the wiki
  • Bruno Winck
    • started with c2
    • likes building something complex with simplicity
    • what is the link between blogs and wikis?
  • Kevin Faaborg
    • interested in getting static site generator to work with file:///
  • Sarah Hibner aka Hibs
    • I view my wiki as a silva rerum (forest of things) mainly for digital bookmark organization
    • Markdown-based, informal wiki
    • got into wikis via c2
    • git-based wiki system
    • using wikis for digital bookmarking
  • Angelo Gladding
    • found indieweb throughmicroformats
    • interested in smenatics of wiki pages
    • note -> article -> image -> wiki post coalescing everything
    • create wiki pages out of chat convo's as often key stuff is mentioned as side remark

Joining late:

  • Greg McVerry
    • had a wiki of book reviews of wikispaces maintained for 10 years that was lsot
    • uses a personal wiki at
    • rebuilding children's book review wiki at
    • includes a wiki using wikimedia like when setting up a community
    • prefers dokuwiki over mediawiki to reduce admin tax
      • added micformats to dokuwiki install
      • added webmentions to dokuwiki install


General discussion

  • Blogs and Wikis in combination
  • Neil Mather using WordPress for blogging but has become using post from KicksCondor about Wikis and referencing Ton Zijlstra
    • Roam Research has been a new "hotness" for the wiki space / notetaking space (in the past 6 months or so)
    • the idea of a stream versus a garden (cross reference Mike Caulfield's article below)
      • when and where to post to stream vs garden
  • Desmond
    • uses wiki for crystalline pieces of information: example: recipe
    • WP distinction between pages and posts
    • stories about a recipe will be a blog post
    • if you end up editing the content of the article often
      • might suggest it should be a wiki post
      • what if the wiki post could update and send notifications to subscribers about changes to ingredients or methods?
  • Sarah Hibner
    • temporal distinction stands out
    • how long something lasts before it needs updating
    • long now and short now - length oftime we expect information to last
    • short now - more recent - last week, last month
    • long now - part of 'the long web' efforts - see also longevity
  • Bruno Winck
    • experiment: everything goes on the wiki, with a flag to say whether something goes on to the stream
    • just a question of - is this page public or not?
    • half-baked posts, maybe it is incubated further
    • should we keep two posts? half-baked has the historical interest - the origin of the thinking
    • redirect the notes into the new full post?
    • embed short blog posts into one longer one
  • chris
    • embedding / transclusion / unfurling
    • stub pages that have no content of their own, but are transcluded into one bigger piece
  • Bruno
    • one problem is no narrative between the transcluded / embedded pieces
  • Bruno
    • substitute of this text easier to embed elsewhere
    • public-facing vs private-facing contexts (is the thing for oneself or meant for others to read?)
  • h0p3
    • unified and chaotic garden of detachable and reusable nodes
    • building molecules from atoms, stacks from heaps
    • first order editing and reuse, of just the tiddler
    • second order editing of the structure
  • martijn
    • likes the term cultivating, gardening
    • once finished a blog post, not going to go back and edit it (other than minor edits)
    • wiki: lets go back and change these posts
  • chris - there's a problem with the 'publish' button
    • adds friction into posting - wikis fix this to some degree
    • pushing the two back together
    • 'things that link to this page' exists as functionality in MediaWiki
    • Roam Research has resurfaced some interest in backlinks / bi-directional links
    • example of bi-directional links built with Gatsby.js
    • thinking of webmentions as a way to introduce bidirectional links between sites, not just internally within a site or wiki
  • Tox network - h0p3 (so one doesn't need to own a domain)
    • h0p3
      • part of the job of the wiki is about finding out what is salient
      • moderation is key
  • chris
    • webmentions can make use of context of the particular post, so as not to overload the linked to site with info
    • backlinks (or bi-directional links) has made people really get behind Roam
  • chris
    • TiddlyWiki allows you to drag and drop tiddlers between tws
    • links to OERs
      • people write / build articles, chapters, books that can be reused in other contexts
  • TiddlyWiki
    • an open source version of Roam in a sense, particularly with TiddlyBlink installed with it.
    • h0p3 uses TW5Bob for open editing on TiddlyWiki
      • TW5Bob is a plugin that makes tiddlywiki a multi-user wiki on node
  • Hibs
    • Gitbook - provides ux/ui for layperson who wants to update information and click. The service does the sync with the back end to Git
    • Social bookmarking - wikis - interconnecting
    • DIKUW pyramid - ?? Knowledge ? Wisdom
  • Angelo Gladding has gotten his site to be able to log into the IndieWeb wiki and then post edits on his own website and then syndicate those edits to the IndieWeb wiki.
    • He spoke about how it's set up as an edit post and an overview of what it does
  • LewisCowles
    • RE: webmentions hiding / showing
    • showing is optional, but filtering != censoring
    • Nothing to be lost as having link to as "inbox" / spam with value picked out
    • Benefit of WebMention being that it gives or can provide at some point authorship information which may work around signing in and account creation
  • Resilio sync to syncronize small sections of wikis from one wiki to another
  • Experiment between h0p3, KicksCondor, and others: Hypertext 2020
    • The master record is kept by hand
    • h0p3's not sure how to automate it

Memory uses, flashcards, memory palaces

  • Marshal Mcluhan - externalizing technology
    • Greg McVerry notes the idea of McLuhan rebels or rebels? (with differing pronunciations/meanings)
  • Wikitrails - give it two pages and it would create a path between them
  • meme-place - AR app to put physical places into one's house
  • h0p3
    • xo brain dump
    • the wiki is a story telling device to retell
    • automated versions of oneself
    • spending time building search tools has been helpful
    • tags are a gunky tool for relating things and building heirarchies
  • Lewis Cowles:
    • tags/taxonomies
    • synonyms for understanding
    • example: the idea of transclusion on wikis and embedding on blogs
    • queue based learning with landmarks
    • making discoverability
    • h0p3 aliases for implied vocabulary and be able to change the names over time
  • folksonomies
  • Early Yahoo was a directory
    • Google looked at things as a big pile
    • links in and out and which get clicked...
    • own your own search... how can one use the data of outbound links one uses
  • twMat - great community around [{TiddlyWiki]]
  • webmention
    • anne-laure has avoided using them so far, to avoid having unwanted content appearing
    • but now knowing that it can be filtered is more keen to use
  • Point on WebMentions
    • Anyone could set up a non service to accept source and target and register webmentions for you.
    • Not sure what this means? A webmention sender will look at the receiving page to see where to send to. Martijn’s website accepts webmentions for any target, but means basically nothing, as no sneder knows about the endpoint unless it is found on the receiving site.
          • this seems like more of an argument about discoverability than anything else.

> The receiver SHOULD check that target is a valid resource for which it can accept Webmentions.

    • All the barriers are facades using IndieAuth.
      • What Webmention endpoint uses IndieAuth?
        • uses indieauth the spec, with the service. The service indieauth is confusingly named.
      • a webmention sender SHOULD look at a receiving page. The core parts of registering, display and receiving are ALL decoupled.
  • martijn
    • do you want people to contribute to your wiki?
    • if the answer is yes, then you will need something that is always on, or rely on some 3rd party system
  • wikis for digital bookmarks
    • excerpting, media preservation, and wikis, they all interlink
    • Wikity was primarily a social bookmarking
  • book: why does information grow?
    • the personbyte - average amount of information a single person could know or understand
    • multiple personbytes are needed to create new knowledge
  • history of edits is important for a wiki
    • recent changes is an an easy way of getting a 'stream' from a wiki
    • chris uses fraidycat to follow streams from TiddlyWikis
  • h0p3
    • interested in the idea of applying machine learning to his wiki corpus as a means of having the ML speak like himself
    • tom critchlow has a twitter bot that does something similar to tweak like him
  • access control - public vs private?
  • link between blogs and wikis - when do you post in the blog vs the wiki?
  • How to make wikis out of chat conversations?
    • I would like to opt out of Angelo linking people across IndieWeb wiki and chat-logs on their own site as I've never consented to be part of it - LewisCowles
  • remembering paths through wikis
    • martijn remembers where to find something on the indieweb wiki by remember a path to get to it
    • wikis are great for serendipity of finding old things in your wiki - things that you didn't even remember were there
  • h0p3
    • automated versions of myself for dialect with myself
    • it's hard to build maps for ourselves
    • relationship between tags and folder hierarchies

Not covered

The following were thrown into the etherpad to potentially be covered, but no direct notes were taken on them specifically, unless covered above. These could be used for continuing the conversation in future sessions.

  • Wikis for education
    • OER
    • Drag and drop pieces with attribution
  • Creative Commons Attribution
  • Networked Wikis
  • Garden vs. Stream
    • Are there other useful metaphors we're missing?
  • Uses of wikis
    • commonplace books
    • note taking
    • knowledge aggregation
    • as publishing platform
      • example of French company using them for portable books with highlights and annotations
    • Thought spaces


  • What would a website look like it if were simultaneously a Wiki and a Blog instead of one or the other?
  • Does anyone else see or use wiki-patterns in non-wiki systems?
    • I use KanBan software Trello & WeKan. They enable me to swiftly create content, but also form more detailed information via details views with checklists, comments, participants etc
  • What are the most valuable features for what you do?
  • How to maintain a narrative voice
    • Smaller snippets
    • Smart-Copy / embed of canonical text from Bruno W


See Also

🌱 Ensemencement wikiway

Tombé en admiration devant l'ensemencement du jardin 🌱 intérieur d'Anne-Laure Le Cunff amorcé sur

  • Liens bi-directionnels
  • Date de dernière modif vs date de publication
  • Prévisualisation interactive des liens
  • Hébergé gracieusement sur Netlify


  • TiddlyBlink pour les liens bi-directionnels
  • Iframes pour afficher les prévisualisations (Twitter:giffmex travaille sur un moyen facile pour l’implémentation)
  • Le générateur de site web statique TiddlyWiki avec des templates pour la création de pages
  • Netlify pour nettoyer les URLs