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+ | ''Cette page a démarré sur [[iwc:podcast]] pour étude. Une traduction pourra migrer une fois relue sur [[iwc:podcast-fr]]'' <span class="h-card" style="white-space:nowrap">{{sparkline|https://twitter.com/xtof_party/profile_image}} [[User:xtof|xtof]]</span> 1 avril 2018 à 06:43 (UTC) | ||
+ | |||
+ | Le **podcasting**, la **diffusion pour baladeur**[1](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podcasting#cite_note-1) ou **baladodiffusion** au [Canada francophone](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_francophone)[2](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podcasting#cite_note-2), est un moyen de diffusion de fichiers (audio, vidéo ou autres) sur [Internet](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet) appelés « podcasts » (ou « balados » au Canada[3](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podcasting#cite_note-3)). | ||
+ | |||
+ | Par l'entremise d'un abonnement à un flux de [données](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donn%C3%A9e_(informatique)) au [format](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Format_de_donn%C3%A9es) [RSS](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSS) ou [Atom](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atom), le _podcasting_ permet aux utilisateurs l'écoute immédiate ou le téléchargement automatique d'émissions audio ou vidéo, à destination par exemple de [baladeurs numériques](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baladeurs_num%C3%A9riques) en vue d'une écoute ultérieure. | ||
+ | |||
+ | |||
+ | |||
{{stub-fr}} | {{stub-fr}} | ||
− | |||
− | {{ | + | Un '''<dfn>podcast</dfn>''' est une série épisodique de posts [[audio]] et/ou [[video]] qui par l'entremise d'un abonnement peut être téléchargée pour une écoute/visualisation [[offline|hors-ligne]]. |
+ | |||
+ | |||
+ | == Pourquoi == | ||
+ | Pourquoi devriez-vous avoir un podcast ? Quelques personnes aiment en écouter durant : | ||
+ | * la marche / la course à pied / l'[[exercise|exercice]] en général | ||
+ | * la conduite, par ex durant un voyage | ||
+ | * une commutation (par n'importe quelle méthode) | ||
+ | |||
+ | == Comment == | ||
+ | [[iTunes]] (propriétaire) et [[RSS]]/[[Atom]] sont les moyens dominants de publier et consommer des flux podcast. | ||
+ | |||
+ | === Comment publier === | ||
+ | Publier un [[RSS]]/[[Atom]] avec podcast audio inside media enclosures, and/or use [[iTunes]]. | ||
+ | |||
+ | === Comment consommer === | ||
+ | Podcasts are RSS/Atom/XML feeds where, normally, the media of the podcast is linked to with an enclosure tag | ||
+ | eg: <enclosure url="http://example.com/podcast01.mp3" length="259429328" type="audio/mpeg" /> | ||
+ | |||
+ | However, most podcasts also include a number of other iTunes specific tags to ensure itunes will subscribe to them easily, eg <itunes:summary>. Some of these itunes tags are usually just replications of the data in other tags in the item. | ||
+ | |||
+ | Most podcast players both consume podcast feeds and play podcast audio. [[iTunes]] is the primary player on OS X and iOS. Other platforms have other players, e.g. [http://beyondpod.com/ BeyondPod] and [http://antennapod.org/ AntennaPod] on [[Android]]. (See also [[podcatcher]]) | ||
+ | |||
+ | Some podcasts only publish on iTunes. You can subscribe to them in other players with hacks like [http://picklemonkey.net/feedflipper-home/ Feed Flipper]. | ||
+ | |||
+ | == Exemples IndieWeb == | ||
+ | IndieWeb examples of personal podcast publishing and consuming | ||
+ | |||
+ | === Ben Werdmuller === | ||
+ | {{benwerd}} has published podcasts on werd.io using [[Known]] | ||
+ | * First 2014-11-02: http://werd.io/2014/the-top-podcasts-are-professional-but-everyones-voice-should-be | ||
+ | * An RSS feed of all posts tagged #podcastsunday: http://werd.io/content/all/?q=%23podcastsunday&_t=rss | ||
+ | |||
+ | === Acegiak === | ||
+ | {{acegiak}} consumes podcasts through her reader [[Whisperfollow]] which aggregates RSS and, if they are marked up with podcast media tags, embeds the media for consumption and provides a link to save or open in another window | ||
+ | |||
+ | === gRegor Morrill === | ||
+ | {{gRegor}} has published a podcast on http://latenighttoast.com using [[ProcessWire]] | ||
+ | * First 2015-05-07: http://latenighttoast.com/episodes/001-episode-305/ | ||
+ | * Includes [[h-feed]] microformats | ||
+ | * Generating the RSS feed [http://latenighttoast.com/xml-feed/] on the same domain so that we can control the canonical URL of the feed after submitting it to iTunes. | ||
+ | * Using [[archive.org]] to host the MP3s. | ||
+ | * Using URLs on the same domain that redirect to the archive.org MP3s, again so that we control the canonical URL of the MP3. This also gives us the ability to roughly track the number of streams/downloads of each episode. | ||
+ | |||
+ | === Jeenas Excellent Encounters === | ||
+ | {{jeena}} is publishing a podcast on https://jeena.net/pods | ||
+ | * using his own implementation with Ruby on Rails | ||
+ | * It's marked up with a h-feed h-entry and u-audio | ||
+ | * It also has a RSS feed for iTunes and other podcast managers | ||
+ | |||
+ | === Marty McGuire === | ||
+ | {{ martymcguire}} is publishing a podcast at https://wehavetoask.com/ | ||
+ | * static site generated with [[Hugo]] | ||
+ | * index marked up as an h-feed with h-entry and u-audio | ||
+ | * Build process also creates an RSS feed for iTunes and other podcast managers | ||
+ | Marty also hosts an IndieWeb-centric podcast [https://martymcgui.re/tag/this-week-indieweb-podcast/ This Week in the IndieWeb] | ||
+ | |||
+ | === Colin Walker === | ||
+ | {{colinwalker}} is publishing a twice-weekly microcast at https://colinwalker.blog/podcast | ||
+ | * self-hosted using WordPress | ||
+ | * episodes approx 3 minutes long, recorded on iPhone and posted using Workflow | ||
+ | * includes h-feed, h-entry and u-audio markup | ||
+ | * local RSS feed and via iTunes | ||
+ | |||
+ | === Aaron Parecki === | ||
+ | {{aaronpk}} publishes a podcast at https://percolator.today | ||
+ | * self-hosted using home-built tools | ||
+ | * episodes are about 3-6 minutes long | ||
+ | * marked up with h-feed, h-entry and u-audio | ||
+ | * has a local RSS feed published via iTunes and other podcast directories | ||
+ | |||
+ | == Autres exemples == | ||
+ | |||
+ | === Microcasts === | ||
+ | For additional examples of short podcasts, see the [[microcast]] page. | ||
+ | {{main|microcast}} | ||
+ | |||
+ | === Wavelist === | ||
+ | [[Wavelist]] is a collection of podcast episodes curated into playlists by individuals. | ||
+ | |||
+ | === Chris Aldrich === | ||
+ | Because of the way {{chrisaldrich}} formats his [[listen]] posts (using the [[Post Kinds Plugin]]) and includes html <code>audio</code> tags marked up with <code>u-audio</code>, the feed for these posts at http://boffosocko.com/kind/listen/feed can be subscribed to like a traditional podcast. Because this feed is meant more to help other's discovery of content, he calls this non-traditional podcast a "faux-cast". More details [http://boffosocko.com/2018/03/08/podcasts-of-things-ive-listened-to-or-want-to-listen-to/ here]. | ||
+ | |||
+ | === Ryan Barrett === | ||
+ | {{snarfed}} publishes a list of podcasts he listens to: | ||
+ | |||
+ | * https://snarfed.org/podcasts | ||
+ | |||
+ | == Exemples de silos == | ||
+ | === Cast === | ||
+ | * [https://tryca.st/ Cast] provides a paid service to allow you to record, edit, publish, and host your podcast. | ||
+ | |||
+ | === Anchor.fm === | ||
+ | * [[Anchor]] is a [[silo]] for [[audio]] posts and [[podcast|podcasting]]. | ||
+ | |||
+ | == Distribution == | ||
+ | There are number of services for distributing your podcast without having to make copies (thus different from [[POSSE]] / syndication in general). | ||
+ | |||
+ | === Huffduffer === | ||
+ | [[Huffduffer]] is a bookmarking service for podcasts and audio / music / speech in general. | ||
+ | |||
+ | To submit your podcast to Huffduffer, create an account, submit your podcast with various tags. | ||
+ | |||
+ | Users of Huffduffer can then find your podcast by tag. | ||
+ | |||
+ | === iTunes === | ||
+ | [[iTunes]] is a service and application from [[Apple]] for music, video, podcasts and other multimedia. Podcasts distributed by iTunes are made easily discoverable and subscribable in: | ||
+ | * MacOS "iTunes" application | ||
+ | * iOS "Podcasts" application | ||
+ | |||
+ | ==== Submitting to iTunes for distribution ==== | ||
+ | See: [https://www.apple.com/itunes/podcasts/specs.html How to Submit a Podcast] at apple.com | ||
+ | |||
+ | When submitting a podcast URL to iTunes, be sure to submit a URL on a domain that you control. For example, if using [[Libsyn]] to host your podcast mp3s, don't submit the RSS URL that they provide. Instead, host a page on your domain that sends a "302 Found" temporary redirect to the Libsyn URL. | ||
+ | |||
+ | The HTTP client that Apple uses to fetch your podcast feed does not support [[SNI]] or [[Letsencrypt]] certificates. If you don't have the ability to host an https URL on a dedicated IP address with an SSL cert from a supported CA, then you will have to give Apple a non-https URL for your podcast feed. | ||
+ | |||
+ | == Changing podcast hosting providers == | ||
+ | |||
+ | === Podcast URL under your control === | ||
+ | |||
+ | If your podcast URL is on your own domain, then you can just change the 302 redirect to point to the new hosting provider. | ||
+ | |||
+ | === Podcast URL not under your control === | ||
+ | If your podcast URL is not on your own domain, then the ability to change your URL is limited by whether your current host allows you to. | ||
+ | |||
+ | Libsyn has a writeup of [http://support.libsyn.com/faqs/changing-your-feed-url-in-itunes/ how to change your feed URL]. | ||
+ | |||
+ | Essentially the process involves setting an additional property in the feed URL. | ||
+ | |||
+ | <pre> | ||
+ | <itunes:new-feed-url>http://newsite.example.com/podcast.rss</itunes:new-feed-url> | ||
+ | </pre> | ||
+ | |||
+ | == Services == | ||
+ | === Unmung === | ||
+ | {{main|unmung}} | ||
+ | [[unmung]] will turn podcast feeds into playable HTML5 audio with microformats markup eg [http://feed.unmung.com/feed?feed=http%3A%2F%2Fdownloads.bbc.co.uk%2Fpodcasts%2Fradio4%2Fiot%2Frss.xml In Our Time] | ||
+ | |||
+ | == Brainstorming == | ||
+ | === How to podcast with h-feed === | ||
+ | {{aaronpk}} has an experimental podcast setup with h-feed. | ||
+ | |||
+ | * http://transportini.com/ | ||
+ | ** The top-level object is an h-feed with the podcast description | ||
+ | ** Each episode is an h-entry child of the h-feed | ||
+ | ** Each episode h-entry has the following properties: | ||
+ | *** name - the episode name | ||
+ | *** length - duration of the episode, e.g. "PT12M40S" | ||
+ | *** size - the file size of the audio file "17.43mb" | ||
+ | *** audio - the link to the mp3 file of the episode | ||
+ | *** url - permalink to the episode's HTML page | ||
+ | *** published | ||
+ | *** summary - episode summary, intended to be displayed in players | ||
+ | |||
+ | {{martymcguire}} publishes a podcast with h-feed. | ||
+ | |||
+ | * https://wehavetoask.com/ | ||
+ | ** The top-level object is an h-feed. The podcast description is contained in the author property of the h-feed as an h-card: | ||
+ | *** url | ||
+ | *** name - name of the podcast | ||
+ | *** note - summary description, similar to what appears in a podcast directory | ||
+ | *** photo - poster image similar to what appears in a podcast directory | ||
+ | ** Each episode is an h-entry child of the feed, with the following properties: | ||
+ | *** name - title of the episode | ||
+ | *** summary - episode summary, intended to be displayed in players | ||
+ | *** audio - the link to the mp3 file of the episode | ||
+ | *** content - HTML with the summary text and <audio> element | ||
+ | *** url - permalink to the episode's HTML page | ||
+ | *** published | ||
+ | |||
+ | {{gRegor}} publishes a podcast with h-feed: | ||
+ | |||
+ | * http://latenighttoast.com/ | ||
+ | ** The top-level object is an h-feed with properties | ||
+ | *** name | ||
+ | *** url | ||
+ | *** author - nested h-card | ||
+ | *** summary - podcast summary, similar to what appears in podcast directory | ||
+ | *** photo - poster image similar to what appears in a podcast directory | ||
+ | ** Each episode is an h-entry child of the h-feed | ||
+ | ** Each episode h-entry has the following properties: | ||
+ | *** name - the episode name | ||
+ | *** length - duration of the episode, e.g. "PT1H7M59S" | ||
+ | *** size - the file size of the audio file "62.2 MB" | ||
+ | *** audio - the link to the mp3 file of the episode | ||
+ | *** url - permalink to the episode's HTML page | ||
+ | *** dt-published | ||
+ | *** summary - episode summary, intended to be displayed in players | ||
+ | *** content - HTML contents of episode page. Includes summary + <audio> + length + download link. May be redundant, but may also serve as a fallback for readers that don't have special handling for [[audio]] posts | ||
+ | |||
+ | == Voir aussi == | ||
+ | * [[audio]] | ||
+ | * [[video]] | ||
+ | * [[microcast]] | ||
+ | * [[podcatcher]] | ||
+ | * [[podcasts about the indieweb]] | ||
+ | * [[Indieweb Podcast Club]] | ||
+ | * [[Screech]] | ||
+ | * [[Audiogram]] | ||
+ | * https://help.apple.com/itc/podcasts_connect/#/itcb54353390 | ||
+ | * 2018-03-31 [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16722996 Hacker News thread about podcasts and business models] <blockquote>I work for a company that tried to do exactly this [a YouTube for podcasts] and we ended up pivoting to enterprise once our technology matured. The money just isn't there, that's why this service doesn't exist. Podcasts are cheap to host and easy enough to produce that nobody is going to invest serious money</blockquote> |
Version actuelle datée du 1 avril 2018 à 06:48
Cette page a démarré sur iwc:podcast pour étude. Une traduction pourra migrer une fois relue sur iwc:podcast-fr xtof 1 avril 2018 à 06:43 (UTC)
Le **podcasting**, la **diffusion pour baladeur**[1](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podcasting#cite_note-1) ou **baladodiffusion** au [Canada francophone](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_francophone)[2](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podcasting#cite_note-2), est un moyen de diffusion de fichiers (audio, vidéo ou autres) sur [Internet](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet) appelés « podcasts » (ou « balados » au Canada[3](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podcasting#cite_note-3)).
Par l'entremise d'un abonnement à un flux de [données](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donn%C3%A9e_(informatique)) au [format](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Format_de_donn%C3%A9es) [RSS](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSS) ou [Atom](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atom), le _podcasting_ permet aux utilisateurs l'écoute immédiate ou le téléchargement automatique d'émissions audio ou vidéo, à destination par exemple de [baladeurs numériques](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baladeurs_num%C3%A9riques) en vue d'une écoute ultérieure.
Cet article est une débauche. Vous pouvez m’aider à l'améliorer.
Un podcast est une série épisodique de posts audio et/ou video qui par l'entremise d'un abonnement peut être téléchargée pour une écoute/visualisation hors-ligne.
Pourquoi
Pourquoi devriez-vous avoir un podcast ? Quelques personnes aiment en écouter durant :
- la marche / la course à pied / l'exercice en général
- la conduite, par ex durant un voyage
- une commutation (par n'importe quelle méthode)
Comment
iTunes (propriétaire) et RSS/Atom sont les moyens dominants de publier et consommer des flux podcast.
Comment publier
Publier un RSS/Atom avec podcast audio inside media enclosures, and/or use iTunes.
Comment consommer
Podcasts are RSS/Atom/XML feeds where, normally, the media of the podcast is linked to with an enclosure tag eg: <enclosure url="http://example.com/podcast01.mp3" length="259429328" type="audio/mpeg" />
However, most podcasts also include a number of other iTunes specific tags to ensure itunes will subscribe to them easily, eg <itunes:summary>. Some of these itunes tags are usually just replications of the data in other tags in the item.
Most podcast players both consume podcast feeds and play podcast audio. iTunes is the primary player on OS X and iOS. Other platforms have other players, e.g. BeyondPod and AntennaPod on Android. (See also podcatcher)
Some podcasts only publish on iTunes. You can subscribe to them in other players with hacks like Feed Flipper.
Exemples IndieWeb
IndieWeb examples of personal podcast publishing and consuming
Ben Werdmuller
Ben Werdmüller has published podcasts on werd.io using Known
- First 2014-11-02: http://werd.io/2014/the-top-podcasts-are-professional-but-everyones-voice-should-be
- An RSS feed of all posts tagged #podcastsunday: http://werd.io/content/all/?q=%23podcastsunday&_t=rss
Acegiak
Ashton McAllan consumes podcasts through her reader Whisperfollow which aggregates RSS and, if they are marked up with podcast media tags, embeds the media for consumption and provides a link to save or open in another window
gRegor Morrill
gRegor Morrill has published a podcast on http://latenighttoast.com using ProcessWire
- First 2015-05-07: http://latenighttoast.com/episodes/001-episode-305/
- Includes h-feed microformats
- Generating the RSS feed [1] on the same domain so that we can control the canonical URL of the feed after submitting it to iTunes.
- Using archive.org to host the MP3s.
- Using URLs on the same domain that redirect to the archive.org MP3s, again so that we control the canonical URL of the MP3. This also gives us the ability to roughly track the number of streams/downloads of each episode.
Jeenas Excellent Encounters
Modèle:Jeena is publishing a podcast on https://jeena.net/pods
- using his own implementation with Ruby on Rails
- It's marked up with a h-feed h-entry and u-audio
- It also has a RSS feed for iTunes and other podcast managers
Marty McGuire
Marty McGuire is publishing a podcast at https://wehavetoask.com/
- static site generated with Hugo
- index marked up as an h-feed with h-entry and u-audio
- Build process also creates an RSS feed for iTunes and other podcast managers
Marty also hosts an IndieWeb-centric podcast This Week in the IndieWeb
Colin Walker
Colin Walker is publishing a twice-weekly microcast at https://colinwalker.blog/podcast
- self-hosted using WordPress
- episodes approx 3 minutes long, recorded on iPhone and posted using Workflow
- includes h-feed, h-entry and u-audio markup
- local RSS feed and via iTunes
Aaron Parecki
Aaron Parecki publishes a podcast at https://percolator.today
- self-hosted using home-built tools
- episodes are about 3-6 minutes long
- marked up with h-feed, h-entry and u-audio
- has a local RSS feed published via iTunes and other podcast directories
Autres exemples
Microcasts
For additional examples of short podcasts, see the microcast page.
Wavelist
Wavelist is a collection of podcast episodes curated into playlists by individuals.
Chris Aldrich
Because of the way Chris Aldrich formats his listen posts (using the Post Kinds Plugin) and includes html audio
tags marked up with u-audio
, the feed for these posts at http://boffosocko.com/kind/listen/feed can be subscribed to like a traditional podcast. Because this feed is meant more to help other's discovery of content, he calls this non-traditional podcast a "faux-cast". More details here.
Ryan Barrett
Modèle:Snarfed publishes a list of podcasts he listens to:
Exemples de silos
Cast
- Cast provides a paid service to allow you to record, edit, publish, and host your podcast.
Anchor.fm
- Anchor is a silo for audio posts and podcasting.
Distribution
There are number of services for distributing your podcast without having to make copies (thus different from POSSE / syndication in general).
Huffduffer
Huffduffer is a bookmarking service for podcasts and audio / music / speech in general.
To submit your podcast to Huffduffer, create an account, submit your podcast with various tags.
Users of Huffduffer can then find your podcast by tag.
iTunes
iTunes is a service and application from Apple for music, video, podcasts and other multimedia. Podcasts distributed by iTunes are made easily discoverable and subscribable in:
- MacOS "iTunes" application
- iOS "Podcasts" application
Submitting to iTunes for distribution
See: How to Submit a Podcast at apple.com
When submitting a podcast URL to iTunes, be sure to submit a URL on a domain that you control. For example, if using Libsyn to host your podcast mp3s, don't submit the RSS URL that they provide. Instead, host a page on your domain that sends a "302 Found" temporary redirect to the Libsyn URL.
The HTTP client that Apple uses to fetch your podcast feed does not support SNI or Letsencrypt certificates. If you don't have the ability to host an https URL on a dedicated IP address with an SSL cert from a supported CA, then you will have to give Apple a non-https URL for your podcast feed.
Changing podcast hosting providers
Podcast URL under your control
If your podcast URL is on your own domain, then you can just change the 302 redirect to point to the new hosting provider.
Podcast URL not under your control
If your podcast URL is not on your own domain, then the ability to change your URL is limited by whether your current host allows you to.
Libsyn has a writeup of how to change your feed URL.
Essentially the process involves setting an additional property in the feed URL.
<itunes:new-feed-url>http://newsite.example.com/podcast.rss</itunes:new-feed-url>
Services
Unmung
unmung will turn podcast feeds into playable HTML5 audio with microformats markup eg In Our Time
Brainstorming
How to podcast with h-feed
Aaron Parecki has an experimental podcast setup with h-feed.
- http://transportini.com/
- The top-level object is an h-feed with the podcast description
- Each episode is an h-entry child of the h-feed
- Each episode h-entry has the following properties:
- name - the episode name
- length - duration of the episode, e.g. "PT12M40S"
- size - the file size of the audio file "17.43mb"
- audio - the link to the mp3 file of the episode
- url - permalink to the episode's HTML page
- published
- summary - episode summary, intended to be displayed in players
Marty McGuire publishes a podcast with h-feed.
- https://wehavetoask.com/
- The top-level object is an h-feed. The podcast description is contained in the author property of the h-feed as an h-card:
- url
- name - name of the podcast
- note - summary description, similar to what appears in a podcast directory
- photo - poster image similar to what appears in a podcast directory
- Each episode is an h-entry child of the feed, with the following properties:
- name - title of the episode
- summary - episode summary, intended to be displayed in players
- audio - the link to the mp3 file of the episode
- content - HTML with the summary text and <audio> element
- url - permalink to the episode's HTML page
- published
- The top-level object is an h-feed. The podcast description is contained in the author property of the h-feed as an h-card:
gRegor Morrill publishes a podcast with h-feed:
- http://latenighttoast.com/
- The top-level object is an h-feed with properties
- name
- url
- author - nested h-card
- summary - podcast summary, similar to what appears in podcast directory
- photo - poster image similar to what appears in a podcast directory
- Each episode is an h-entry child of the h-feed
- Each episode h-entry has the following properties:
- name - the episode name
- length - duration of the episode, e.g. "PT1H7M59S"
- size - the file size of the audio file "62.2 MB"
- audio - the link to the mp3 file of the episode
- url - permalink to the episode's HTML page
- dt-published
- summary - episode summary, intended to be displayed in players
- content - HTML contents of episode page. Includes summary + <audio> + length + download link. May be redundant, but may also serve as a fallback for readers that don't have special handling for audio posts
- The top-level object is an h-feed with properties
Voir aussi
- audio
- video
- microcast
- podcatcher
- podcasts about the indieweb
- Indieweb Podcast Club
- Screech
- Audiogram
- https://help.apple.com/itc/podcasts_connect/#/itcb54353390
- 2018-03-31 Hacker News thread about podcasts and business models
I work for a company that tried to do exactly this [a YouTube for podcasts] and we ended up pivoting to enterprise once our technology matured. The money just isn't there, that's why this service doesn't exist. Podcasts are cheap to host and easy enough to produce that nobody is going to invest serious money